Interview with a former brothel madam – Andrea Heinz

When Andrea Heinz was 22 years old, she found herself deep in debt. With limited skills and lack of resources, she turned to the sex trade to make ends meet. I interviewed her to get her story and her point of view on the sex trade as a former brothel madam.

“I have many regrets from my time in the sex trade, but none so many or severe as the damage I directly and indirectly did to my fellow women.” – Andrea Heinz, former brothel madam

Rochelle: Tell our readers a little bit about yourself.

Andrea: I am a 37 year-old Canadian woman who is happily married with 3 children.  I hold a diploma in Correctional Services and am presently in my final year of studies to complete a Bachelor of Professional Arts in Governance, Law & Management.  I love to exercise and have been an avid runner for nearly 25 years.  I also love to read, and I occasionally write poetry.  I became a sex trade abolitionist after spending seven years in the licensed & regulated sex trade in Edmonton, Alberta from 2006-2013. 

Rochelle: What got you into the sex industry?

Andrea: When I was 22 I found myself $60,000 in debt from a string of financially abusive relationships coupled with limited skills, no post-secondary education, and a lack of financial literacy.  For years I struggled, at one point working five part-time jobs in an attempt to clear my debt.  When I saw an ad in my local newspaper offering thousands of dollars a week for “adult entertainment”, I replied to the ad unaware of what I was even replying to.  I was so naïve and had not had any exposure to the sex trade prior to that, aside from glamorized depictions in media and pop culture.

Rochelle: How long were you in there for? Give us a summary of your experience.

Andrea: What was intended to be a short (and reluctant) two-months in the sex trade ended up becoming seven years of full-time participation entailing well over four thousand “sessions” with buyers.  Initially I operated under others at three different brothels in my first three years, and after experiencing repeated abuse and victimization, I built and owned my own brothel for the last four years.  At the time it seemed like a good thing to do to help and support women (as well as myself), but looking back it only moved the abuse the women experienced from another location to my brothel instead.  I began to see that the harm sellers were experiencing was not an issue of legality or of indoor versus outdoor, rather it was the objectification and dehumanization that is inherent to the sex trade itself. All in all in was a negative and demeaning experience that continues to adversely affect me to this day.

Rochelle: Tell me about how you exited the industry. Were there help & support available for you? Did it have effects on your mental health/wellbeing?

Andrea: I was fortunate in that I was able to exit on my first attempt.  That is not typical of sex sellers.  I credit that to having a loving and supportive family, a non-abusive and encouraging partner, good friends, and a determination to strive for more in my life.  The Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation (CEASE) in Edmonton offers valuable exit supports such as counseling referrals, victim advocacy, educational bursaries and immediate poverty relief.  While I never utilized these services specifically, I found great support within their peer network and those within the organization who have been working tirelessly as advocates in my community for over twenty years.  The guidance and support of the women who went before me paired with the support in my personal life made all the difference for me in exiting – emotionally, mentally, and practically.

Rochelle: I found your account on Twitter as a few of the people I followed “liked” your thread apologising for the harm you’ve caused. That must have been hard for you. I know a former madam who doesn’t regret anything & showed no signs of guilt, she is a very practical woman and she is for pro legalisation. What brought you to take the abolitionist position? Or why have you become an abolitionist?

Andrea: As a feminist who greatly values women’s rights, I tried for years to internalize and subscribe to the “sex work is work” ideology.  We all want women to be safe and have equality, and the sex work ideology is certainly palatable, seemingly entrenched in bodily autonomy and freedom of expression. My observations rarely ever led me to conclude that the women I knew (including myself) held genuine bodily autonomy though, or derived empowerment from enduring repeated unwanted sexual contact with strange, often aggressive/violent men.  I have met hundreds of women selling sex and nearly every single one entered and operated under constrained choice, never genuine choice.  My love of reading led me to delve deep into the academic realm and study sexual exploitation.  That, coupled with the writings of other exited women-turned abolitionists left me no option but to then accept the industry for what it truly is: a gendered and high-risk activity that is deeply rooted in the social and economic marginalization of women and girls.  At the end of the day I am a believer that people, and particularly their sexual consent, should not be capitalized.  I believe in the intrinsic value of the human being, and their right to live a life of dignity, free of being sexually exploited in order to pay rent or buy groceries.

Rochelle: So, does this mean you don’t think sex work is work? A lot of liberal feminists and pro decriminalisation lobby groups like to say it is a woman’s choice, that some find it liberating. What are your thoughts on this?

Andrea: I think the sex trade is a tragic outcome of classism mixing with patriarchy.  I refuse to dignify it with the term “work”.  I try not to assume that everyone is a victim however, as many providers including myself operated with a great deal of privilege, earning hundreds of dollars an hour and would never self-identify as a “survivor”.  Still, identifying as a victim is not a requirement to actually being victimized, and when someone uses money as a coercive tool to void the obtainment of genuine sexual consent they are in fact victimizing someone.  The refusal of providers to acknowledge and internalize their victimization is a self-preservation technique that supports their longevity.  We all try to make the most of what we do since women all want to feel empowered and see themselves as such.  If selling sex was truly a genuine choice though, we would see people with other viable choices “choosing” to sell sex at rates in alignment with other high-paying activities.  While there is undoubtedly empowered and privileged “sex worker” identifying people out there, they are not by any means reflective of the vast majority of those in the sex trade, and we should not sacrifice the ninety percent or so of people who seek alternate options and exit strategies.

You can read more on this in my recently published paper here:

https://digitalcommons.uri.edu/dignity/vol5/iss1/8

Rochelle: The main thing pro decriminalisation and sex workers’ groups criticise about The Nordic Model is that it takes away sex workers’ livelihood because johns are afraid to buy sex hence proponents of it are what they would call “SWERFs” (Sex Workers Exclusionary Radical Feminists). What are your thoughts on this? They argue that there are sex workers who are there by choice and that we focus too much on trafficked people—that there are people who do other types of sex work that deserve protection and rights like women who produce work for OnlyFans.

Andrea: A “sex worker” once said to me “I know most women are not here by choice, but that’s not my problem, I want to sell sex and should be able to”.  I was left wondering when we became such an individualistic and selfish society, foregoing any concern for the collective good of community, of womanhood.  It’s akin to someone saying “sure most drunk driving is harmful, but I can drive intoxicated no problem so it should be legal to do so”.  We have to work collectively for what is good for women as a whole, and that is not reducing us to a mere purchasable commodity for men.  We need to work toward genuine equality in the mainstream workforce, and in leadership positions within government, access to healthcare, affordable childcare.  We will not increase our social positioning by giving oral sex in a brothel.  We need to change the culture so that men support women in striving for true equality, and so that women don’t feel the need to sell sex in order to feel empowered (which really just means earn a liveable wage and survive independently of men). If women were to acquire actual, real equality, I doubt there would be many, if any, “choosing” to remain in the sex trade.  The Equality Model (Nordic Model) when adequately supported (financially), is the most effective legislative approach for women to successfully exit and bridge over to conventional lifestyles.  We need to put real dollars into that model though so that women’s income and livelihood are not adversely affected in the effort to reduce/eliminate sexual exploitation.

Rochelle: Do you think sex work can truly be consensual?

Andrea: No.  Two of the key components to legally giving sexual consent are 1) that it is freely given without coercion and 2) that no one party is in a position of power or authority over another.  For the thousands of men who paid me for sex, I never once consented with a single one of them – I only offered compliance in exchange for their money.  In order to endure the barrage of off-putting sexual intrusions, I had to do what many women do and that is dissociate, separating my mind and my body from one another.  Money does not equal consent.  I have seen women smile to a buyer while they service them sexually and then break down sobbing the moment he leaves.  I have seen this multiple times, many women turning to drugs, self-harm and other self-soothing techniques to try to mitigate the flood of negative feelings.  Unwanted sex is unwanted sex whether we are compensated for it or not. I don’t believe there is a “sex worker” who can say they have never, at one point or another, endured unwanted sex with a buyer.  It is imperative to uphold the sanctity of genuine sexual consent.

Rochelle: Someone replied to a tweet that I posted saying it’s the stigma that makes sex work dangerous. I obviously disagreed as I think it’s male violence. But what’s your opinion on this?

Andrea: I feel both stigma and male violence are harmful to those who sell sex.  Throughout history, it has always been the woman (seller) bearing the brunt of all social consequences, very rarely the men (buyers) who are there based on their “entertainment” and individual gratification.  The buyers (who are always strongly protected through anonymity and the sexual double standard) make the genuine CHOICE to circumvent someone’s consent, while the seller is often there out of economic destitution or force as with trafficking.  When we stigmatize women for their desperation, we are doing them a grave injustice.  The onus of harm that results from the sex trade falls largely on the demand side, and men should be held accountable for their actions that result in millions of women and girls worldwide acquiring lifelong trauma and harm.  That said, I don’t feel buyers should be stigmatized either, we need to approach them with understanding, accountability, and opportunities for rehabilitation if we want to see them transform into non-exploitative men.

Rochelle: What do you think are the things people in the industry need in order for them to be safe? I’m anti-sex work but I am for pro sex-worker’s rights, to be safe and to be protected. So I suppose my question is, how can we abolish the trade and look after the girls, women and others who are still in it?

Andrea: I have come to realize that despite our best efforts to reduce harm, the real harm itself comes from unsavory/violent sex buyers as well as the impact of repetitively being objectified and exploited.  We have attempted several buffer strategies over many years in varying cultures to no avail (legalization, decriminalization. shift to indoor locations, licensing oversight, panic buttons in the rooms).  It is not the stipulations of selling sex that determine harm – it is the act of sexual access being commoditized and the harm that men directly cause us (choking, stalking, stealthing).  To reduce the harm on sellers, we need to remove them completely from what it is that is truly harming them – and that is being forced to sexually engage dangerous and misogynistic men who don’t view them as equals.  This requires criminalization of sex buying as well as third-party exploitative acts including pimping and human trafficking (Equality Model approach).  Harm reduction such as condom distribution and support referrals certainly helps, but harm elimination needs to be the actual end goal.

Rochelle: Lastly, you mentioned you were doing a documentary. Do you want to give us a little bit of info about that and I can share the gofundme link for people to donate to help get you some funds.

Andrea: Thank you so much.  I am presently directing my first film ‘Labeled’ in partnership with Guerrilla Motion Pictures, Inc. (Edmonton) which chronicles my attempt to challenge the United States to absolve me of a travel waiver requirement after declaring me inadmissible in 2010 and documenting me a ‘prostitute’ in their immigration database.  I had been invited by a doctor to travel to Las Vegas and was intercepted at the border and issued a ban, which remains in effect against me until Dec 20, 2022.  The buyer received no consequences and was permitted to carry on to Las Vegas for the scheduled trip.  The film also examines the sex trade on a macro level, arguing that it is not a victimless activity.  We hope to have it released by mid-2021 and would greatly appreciate any and all support given here:

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